April 13, 2005 – Online Chat on Sexuality
Sheena Malhotra>>hi everyone
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Kanna Uehara>>Hello professor
Teresa Worrell>>Hi Jacquie
Joi Pinney>>hi professor
Teresa Worrell>>Hi Doc
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Jacqueline Brennan>>Hi Teri
Sheena Malhotra>>okay... let's wait a couple minutes and then get started
Barbara Abantao>>Hey Shana
Sheena Malhotra>>i just want to let you all know that I've just posted your test #2 grades... available through WebCT
Teresa Worrell>>Professor, did you get both of my papers?
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Sheena Malhotra>>i'll have to check
Tonya Schmidt>>?
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Teresa Worrell>>ok
Sheena Malhotra>>TS
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Tonya Schmidt>>i sent an email asking if an outside event could be counted as an event
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Joi Pinney>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>an outside event can be counted as an event... it just has to deal with gender and the idea of women as agents of change
Sheena Malhotra>>JP
Joi Pinney>>how much was the quiz worth?
Tonya Schmidt>>did you get my email?
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Sheena Malhotra>>i've also posted some great new events on the website... please check out the "cool events" link. there's one on april 20th
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Teresa Worrell>>thanks
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Sheena Malhotra>>the quiz is worth 10 points
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Joi Pinney>>ok , thank you
Jacqueline Brennan>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>JB
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Jacqueline Brennan>>Is there a way to see exactly how we scored on each question?
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Sheena Malhotra>>JB. No, there is not a way for you to do that on your own. However, if anyone wants to see where they missed points, they can email me and we can set up a time to talk on the phone or to meet... and I would be happy to go over the test with you individually
Connie Shannon>>be somewhere else
Sheena Malhotra>>CS... sorry... unclear on your message
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Jacqueline Brennan>>Thank you
Connie Shannon>>Sorry
Sheena Malhotra>>okay...
Sheena Malhotra>>let's get started
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Sheena Malhotra>>today, we're talking about sexuality.
Teresa Worrell>>:)
Sheena Malhotra>>and civil rights
Sheena Malhotra>>I want to start with the article on Queer Theory
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Sheena Malhotra>>What is queer theory? What is its main focus? What do you suppose it is trying to study?
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Sheena Malhotra>>
Sheena Malhotra>>
Sheena Malhotra>>anyone?
Natalia Escuti>>it is tryin to study the gay and lesbian identities..that's what i gathered from it....it's more of a political concept
Sheena Malhotra>>NE. Okay, that's a start. Even more fundamentally... what does queer theory deconstruct?
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Crysol Dominguez>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD
Natalia Escuti>>focusing on their rights....it's a phenomenon that began in early 1990's
Crysol Dominguez>>the idea of what defines gender and identity in itself?
Sheena Malhotra>>CD. Okay... you're getting closer. Queer theory is questioning lines of gender and sexuality...
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Sheena Malhotra>>and in essence it deconstructs the norms.
Natalia Escuti>>it's trying to deconstruct the idea of male "imperialism"?
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Victoria Barco>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>So basically ... queer theory asks us to examine the norms we hold - around questions of gender and sexuality
Sheena Malhotra>>VB
Victoria Barco>>Nevermind... You just said what I was going to.
Sheena Malhotra>>why is that important? why is it important to look at the norm, or theorize about it?
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Connie Shannon>>!
Barbara Abantao>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>!
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Sheena Malhotra>>and why do you think the queer community is best positioned to examine those norms?
Mike Black>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CS, BA, CD
Sheena Malhotra>>MB
Tonya Schmidt>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>TS
Mike Black>>It is important to look at the norm to understand an idea in the context that time and society
Barbara Abantao>>To be able to recognize the real existence of such situations among us
Barbara Abantao>>or within the society
Tonya Schmidt>>Those not considered in the norm can more easily exam what is going on.
Crysol Dominguez>>I understood jagose to question the norms that society creates, most importnant a patriarchal society,
Sheena Malhotra>>MB. Excellent. Yes. Norms usually only make sense within a particular time and cultural context
Natalia Escuti>>norms are unwritten rules that are imposed by different socializatin agents...and if we theorize it we can deconstruct the idea of what it should or should not be followed or done
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Connie Shannon>>sexuality is an idea formed by society. Strange.. Society can make you or break you depending on who you choose to be intimate with!
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>And as TS is suggesting... when we're part of the norm... it just feels "normal" to us... and it's hard for us to see. But when we are not part of the norm... we can more clearly see that it is a construction into which we do not fit... we can see its parameters... and perhaps are able to critique it as well
Sheena Malhotra>>KU
Ashlee Burke>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>AB
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>NE, CS... yes, to what both of you are saying as well
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Sheena Malhotra>>JB
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Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Kanna Uehara>>it is important to look at the norms to understabd how our society create the ideas of sexuality.
Ashlee Burke>>I agree with CS that sexuality is an idea that's based on chaning society. That the definiation of sexuality chaning with society
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Sheena Malhotra>>SZ
Jacqueline Brennan>>It was said in the video that each person's reaction is authentic to the time in which they live in, which makes it even more important to re-evaluate and redifine the norms as we know them
Wendell Smith>>!
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>WS
Megan Wiser>>!
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Sharareh Zarabi>>i think in our own way, each individual does not exactly meet the norms of our society... i don't think all humans gay or straight are what we are expected to be!
Wendell Smith>>I agree with JB it is important to re-evaluate and redefine the norms because they are always constantly changing every 10 to 15 years
Megan Wiser>>i agree JB time can change everything and it is important that the norms change with time
Joi Pinney>>!
Kanna Uehara>>Right, I think so JB.
Sheena Malhotra>>JB. Yes. I think that when we are living in a particular time... we act in particular ways... because that is what is "normative" then... it is only by stepping outside that time that we can see more clearly ... or by stepping out of that context some how.
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ. Very true. But we act AS IF we SHOULD all enact the norm. In fact, we often punish those who do not.
Sheena Malhotra>>JP
Joi Pinney>>i agree with SZ, i think that we all have behaviors that would not be constituted as part of the norm
Sheena Malhotra>>Right... think about what the "norm" is for marriage even today.
Sheena Malhotra>>What is the "marriage norm" today?
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>1
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA, SZ
Shana Jones>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD, KU
Victoria Barco>>!
Natalia Escuti>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>VB, NE
Barbara Abantao>>At least a divorce or with a prenup depending on your status
Mona Munoz>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>MM
Victoria Barco>>Men marry women and women marry men... (Although personally I think it shouldn't be that way...)
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>Man, Woman, 2.5 children
Joi Pinney>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>ha ha
Sheena Malhotra>>JB
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Sheena Malhotra>>JP
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Kanna Uehara>>men and women marry and have a baby
Mike Black>>!
Shana Jones>>I think either single parent or mixed families (step-parents) are the norm in society
Joi Pinney>>getting married in a church is considered a marriage norm
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Sheena Malhotra>>CD. Right. Straight couple, 2.5 kids, man works, woman stays at home, etc., etc.
Mona Munoz>>I think people do not value marriage, because 50% of them end up in divorce
Sharareh Zarabi>>the marriage norm varies for each culture.. what is expected of me from my culture is very different then what is expected from most of you. The question is, should a person meet the expectations of a society or culture? I THINK NOT!!
Shana Jones>>!
Jacqueline Brennan>>I think the answer depends on the time during the marriage. However, I think that most marriages are entered into less carefully than they should be - although I believe most are entered with the best of intentions or hopes.
Sheena Malhotra>>SJ
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Barbara Abantao>>gay marriage
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Shana Jones>>I dont think that the nuclear family is the norm today. It is the ideal.
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>right. okay. the point was that we have a certain "normative" idea about marriage. but one, many of us do not FIT that norm, even if we are straight. and definitely, we don't fit it if we are gay
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD, KU, JB
Crysol Dominguez>>I like how one of our classmates said it Patriarchal marriage..that is the norm
Natalia Escuti>>It is excakty when time has passed and so events when we can look back and evaluate....at the time and place we are just embeded by the norms, social ideal and culture of that particular time...there is no norm as far as sexual marriages...not in TODAY's world...but like Shana said it's just an idea or an expectation
Kanna Uehara>>I agrre with JB. I think that marrigae norm depends on the countries.
Jacqueline Brennan>>I agree with SJ - I think it is definately the ideal, but most people have the statistics of how many marriages end in divorce in the back of their minds...there is always the option of divorce, and I think that fact takes away from the possibility of the ideal being realistic.
Renae Flores>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>the point of queer theory is to question that norm... how it functions in our society, to question norms of gender performance, to question norms of sexuality...
Sheena Malhotra>>RF
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Renae Flores>>Good point Jacquie....I think if the idea of "forever" is eliminated, marriage almost has less meaning
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD
Crysol Dominguez>>I like how jagose asks us to step out of the box and redefine the idea of identity (the identity that society baptizes us, if i may call it that)
Sheena Malhotra>>right.
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sharareh Zarabi>>I think that sexual preference is like any other preference...we are free to choose most anything, why shouldn't a person be able to choose their life partner. certain norms should be decided individually not decided by a society
Sheena Malhotra>>so once we start questioning identities that we often think of as fixed, and realize that in some ways identity is a lot more fluid than we think... it opens up all sorts of possibilities
Sheena Malhotra>>KU
Ashlee Burke>>!
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Sheena Malhotra>>SZ. I think it is a good question you are asking. Societies often try to legislate sexuality... particularly patriarchal societies... and that would cover most of the world today
Ashlee Burke>>I like the point that SZ makes. I think that if we live in a "free" country when as individuals we should be able to make a "free" decisison
Sheena Malhotra>>AB
Kanna Uehara>>all the readings and the film were interesting tome. Especially I liked Cartier's artcle. I could understand how she felt about the issues of gay people.
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Natalia Escuti>>!
Renae Flores>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>AB. I think that in this case, the US is behind a lot of countries, such as Australia and Norway, which recognize gay partners just as they do straight ones
Sheena Malhotra>>NE, RF
Renae Flores>>I thought we live in a "democratic" society...wouldn't there would be chaos if everyone did as they wanted?
Natalia Escuti>>i like the idea that identity is what can actually open up all sorts of doors for everyone...when you know who you are and be real about it many doors can be opened in terms of what you can get out of life...i liked your comment professor
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>KU
Sheena Malhotra>>RF. Why would it be chaotic if gay partnerships were recognized the same as straight ones?
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Mona Munoz>>mm
Mona Munoz>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>cd, mm
Kanna Uehara>>Right, RF. I thought the same thing too although I think gay marriage should be legalized.
Renae Flores>>I wasn't refering to gay marriage, necessarily. I just think democracy should be respected.
Mona Munoz>>I think the people that are not comfortable with their own sexuality, will take offense to it
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>RF. Okay... then why are religious beliefs about marriage being used to deny a group their civil rights when this democracy is based on the constitution... which argues for the seperation of church and state?
Natalia Escuti>>it'd be chaotic for those who live by "norms" and don;t have an open mind and open heart...people that see sexuality as a taboo or are not comfortable with their own
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ
Kanna Uehara>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>I see what RF is trying to get at but, everyone should have the right to live as they like as long as they do not physically harm another in doing so. Everyone should be entitled to Civil and Human rights without discrimination!
Wendell Smith>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>KU, WS
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>JB
Sharareh Zarabi>> I don't see where the chaos would be or how this affects our government... it's a personal choice that does not really affect anyone but the people in the marriage. An individual has to be content with it based on their own beliefs
Tonya Schmidt>>TS
Wendell Smith>>two gay people that want to get married don't hurt anybody just like two straight people who want to get married doesn't hurt anyone. Marriage is between two people who love each other. Society should not be able to dictate who should marry whom.
Sheena Malhotra>>TS
Kanna Uehara>>I know what you RF were trying to say. My English was not just good. Sorry RF.
Jacqueline Brennan>>Its like Cartier said in her letter "...And we are still paying taxes. And we still do not have civil rights." this fact is outrageous to me.
Mona Munoz>>I agree WS!!!
Tonya Schmidt>>I think that people hide behind religion as a reason to deny gay marriage
Sheena Malhotra>>WS. Good point.
Jacqueline Brennan>>i totally agree ws!
Tamika Miller>>tm
Tamika Miller>>!
Kanna Uehara>>I really agree with WS
Shana Jones>>!
Mona Munoz>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>I think that people are entitled to their religious beliefs. And that I do not want to take away from anyone. However... my point is different. The STATE has no business basing laws on religious beliefs... because that is simply unconstitutional.
Sheena Malhotra>>TM, SJ, MM
Tamika Miller>>i don't think we should add relgion to the mix, it opens up a whole other can of worms
Kanna Uehara>>?
Teresa Worrell>>!
Joi Pinney>>!
Shana Jones>>I agree with WS also. I think that any heterosexual couple whose marriage is jeopardized by two homosexual people who love each other marrying , should not be married to begin with.
Sheena Malhotra>>TM. True. That's my point. We need to take religion OUT of the mix.
Sheena Malhotra>>KU, TW, JP
Mona Munoz>>I agree professor!! Many people get married and are not religous and have non-religous wedding ceremonies!
Sharareh Zarabi>>I agree with you prof
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>JB
Teresa Worrell>>Church and state are only intigrated when it's covenient for society, when it comes to human rights welp we are s.o.l
Kanna Uehara>>I don't have any particular religion that I believe. Do many religions deny gay marriage??
Natalia Escuti>>!
Jacqueline Brennan>>Thats because they get married because they love each other. Not necessarily because of religious beliefs. That is all that should matter. If two people love each other and want to get married, that should be all that matters.
Joi Pinney>>I also agree with WS, we should be able to find happiness with whom we choose
Barbara Abantao>>!
Tamika Miller>>the state doesn't make laws, laws are created and then we as people vote on them. the states haven't kept gay marriages out american citizens have. alot of americans don't believe in gay marriage
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Renae Flores>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>I would also be willing to say that for many, marriage is a "religious" institution. SO one other option woudl be to say that the state issues UNION Licences to both gay and straight people... and then people can choose to have their own "marriage" or "commitment" ceremonies in their religious institutions as they like. Meaning seperate the two...
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Sheena Malhotra>>BA, SZ, RF
Joi Pinney>>!
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Jacqueline Brennan>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>JP, JB
Sharareh Zarabi>>TM makes a good point but I think politicians hold more power then we'd like to believe
Joi Pinney>>professor i think that's a really good idea, all people should have options
Barbara Abantao>>Couldn't a judge issue a marriage certificate? that does not include any religious affiliation of any sort.
Megan Wiser>>!
Renae Flores>>TM...That's the point I was trying to get at....democracy dictates whether gay marriages exists
Sheena Malhotra>>TM. True... but the majority has held many oppressive beliefs in the past. At one time, a "majority" of "American citizens" supported slavery. That didn't make it just or right.
Renae Flores>>not religion
Sheena Malhotra>>MW
Jacqueline Brennan>>Wouldn't that mean that people who have no religious affiliation would hae to file for a commitment ceremony even if they are straight? I can see that becoming a HUGE issue throughout the country. A marriage is a marriage and should be considered one - regardless of the sexuality.
Megan Wiser>>i think that if we were all crated equal in god's eyes than we should have equal opportunties when it comes to the choices we make especially marriage
Megan Wiser>>created
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Sheena Malhotra>>JB... no, my point is that the state just issues "union licences" for ANYONE who wants one. After that, it's up to people to have a seperate ceremony or NOT. But the legal document would be a Union certificate or licence... which would carry the same rights for everyone, gay or straight.
Sheena Malhotra>>JP
Jacqueline Brennan>>ok
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>I'm just putting this forth as a simple solution to separate the conflation of marriage with religion... which is where the debate keeps getting stuck these days. I wonder why alternative solutions such as this one ARE NOT being debated in the public sphere. I wonder then if this issue - which DOES deeply divide this country - gets used to whip up a frenzy about how "marriage and religious beliefs" are under attack!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD, BA
Crysol Dominguez>>religion and even love aside, the issue is political. It is about a group having the same rights as the rest. If it were hispanics for example or any other group, handicap, what would be the problem?
Mike Black>>!
Sharareh Zarabi>>I completely agree with CD
Sheena Malhotra>>CD. Right. This is an issue of civil rights. You don't have to like it. But I think it is a matter of social justice.
Sheena Malhotra>>MB
Mike Black>>I think the solution you came up is a very good idea. The problem is most people are on one side or the other they can not see that a common compramise would help everyone.
Barbara Abantao>>I think the acceptance of gay marraige is a symbolic acceptance of the gay culture which hard to accept for many of the white men making these decisions in the political arena
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Ashlee Burke>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA. I think that this time we can't just put this on white men. A huge majority of the voters in the 2004 election cited this as one of the main reasons they voted Republican.
Tamika Miller>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD, AB, TM
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Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Natalia Escuti>>oops i got disconnected
Tamika Miller>>i'm sorry i'm a bit confused so being gay is now a civil rights issue
Ashlee Burke>>I agree with BA that I think it's hard for the white policy makers to understand the nature of gay culture. However, they should understand the basic idea of human rights
Crysol Dominguez>>As BA said "white men", its always leads to the patriarchal ideologies of the country. And in the mix of it all women as a group get a taste of that bitter end of the chain
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Tamika Miller>>i don't under how it is
Sheena Malhotra>>TM. Being gay is not. Having rights as a gay person in this country is a matter of civil rights.
Barbara Abantao>>sorry I did not mean to limit my anser to that... indeed it is the huge majority of the voter's but wouldn't it be hard to deny that they do put out negative add campagins for these issues before the voting takes place?
Barbara Abantao>>*answer
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ
Sharareh Zarabi>>Being gay is not a civil right issue ... i think their inability to choose marriage with a partner is a civil rights issue
Kanna Uehara>>??
Sheena Malhotra>>KU
Kanna Uehara>>gay rights and civil rights are considered as the same thing?? I am cofusing.
Sheena Malhotra>>okay. let's take a step back.
Sheena Malhotra>>what are some civil rights we have in this society?
Sharareh Zarabi>>voting
Crysol Dominguez>>1
Sheena Malhotra>>CD
Renae Flores>>!
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>Rf
Renae Flores>>freedom of speech
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA,
Crysol Dominguez>>freedom of speach, pursuit of happiness
Joi Pinney>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>JP
Joi Pinney>>freedom of expression
Crysol Dominguez>>fredom of religion,
Teresa Worrell>>justice for all
Kanna Uehara>>seeking our happiness
Barbara Abantao>>freedom to be yourself in espression of your ideologies
Shana Jones>>!
Kanna Uehara>>freedom of speaching
Barbara Abantao>>expression*
Sheena Malhotra>>okay... so those are some basic, umbrella rights.
Sheena Malhotra>>under those - come more specific ones.
Kanna Uehara>>!
Barbara Abantao>>freedom to practice gender
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Kanna Uehara>>freedom to get education?
Sheena Malhotra>>so for example... if I have loved and lived with someone for the last 20 years - and they fall terribly ill - if I am straight and have the "right" to get married - then I have access to them in the hospital as "family". If I am gay - then I do not have that access... because I do not have the right to get married to this person.
Kanna Uehara>>Oh-, I see.
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Kanna Uehara>>??
Sheena Malhotra>>there are numerous rights that get confered through 'marriage' in our society. many rights we take for granted... picking up children at school, right to property, right to alimony, etc., etc.,
Natalia Escuti>>the freedom of expressin would cover freedom of express who you are in terms of sexuality
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ, KU
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Sheena Malhotra>>those are the "civil" rights that the queer community is asking for when they are asking for the right to get "married"
Kanna Uehara>>now I am getting to understand
Sheena Malhotra>>SJ... sorry I missed you
Shana Jones>>its okay
Sharareh Zarabi>>that is an amazing point professor. It is unfair to strip someone of their human rights because of their sexual preference.. I truly think it comes down to the battle of the power the church has over the state, it seems as though they forgot about civil rights
Crysol Dominguez>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ. Very true. CD
Mike Black>>!
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>MB, KU
Crysol Dominguez>>Can one dare to compare gay marriage to rosa parks in the? Its like we are saying sorry lady you can't ride with us even though you work, live and pay like us..?
Kanna Uehara>>Now I really think that gay and lebian people shoould be able to have the same civil rights as hetrosexual people.
Mike Black>>I think that it also has to do with that the idea of being Gay scares some people. If you legalize gay marriage then it becomes exceptable. Some people don't like these kinds of changes.
Ashlee Burke>>!
Wendell Smith>>WS
Connie Shannon>>!
Tamika Miller>>!
Wendell Smith>>sorry I mean!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD. I think that is a comparison that gets made. I think there are some overlaps. But there are also differences. But for the point you're making... yes, there is a point of comparison there
Sheena Malhotra>>AB, WS, CS, TM
Connie Shannon>>I think Mike is right people are afraid of what they don't understand.
Teresa Worrell>>!
Kanna Uehara>>!
Ashlee Burke>>I like CD's point and it remains me of the Clarke's article about how she compared African-American issues with gay issues
Sheena Malhotra>>MB. I think it is something to consider... what are we SO afraid of? If two people who love each other commit to living together... HOW does that "lower" straight marriage? Why do we need these "DEFENCE OF MARRIAGE" acts?
Tamika Miller>>i don't understnad how you can compare rosa parks to being gay.
Sheena Malhotra>>TW, KU
Teresa Worrell>>As a lesbain white men seem to understand me fine...as they say we like the same thing...yuck really it's about giving a little control and power
Mike Black>>!
Wendell Smith>>I think it just has to do with california or the government wanting to control everything and do everything according to their rules. I kind of feeling what mike is saying but I don't think they are scared.They know its out there but they don't like it so they say you can't legally marry as some sort of control mechanism
Sheena Malhotra>>MB
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CD
Teresa Worrell>>people always fear losing something they already have or not getting something they want...
Crysol Dominguez>>not being gay...the gay marriage issue.
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Kanna Uehara>>I really agree with Connie. That is why I think that it's important for to really listen to them, talk to them and educate ourselve.
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ
Renae Flores>>!
Mike Black>>I don't think there is anything to be afraid of, I am just saying that many people are afraid of any change. Once Gay marriage is more acceptable in society as a whole, then people will begin to loose their fear.
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Sheena Malhotra>>RF
Teresa Worrell>>!
Teresa Worrell>>what's the fear?
Wendell Smith>>okay I agree
Sharareh Zarabi>>I think Marie Cartier uses the analogy of Rosa Parks, it's about human rights..gay, black, asian white etc.
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Renae Flores>>I think what happened to Rosa Parks and the African American Community is not the same as what is happening to the gay community....The gay community does have the same rights, just not the right to marry
Sheena Malhotra>>JB
Sheena Malhotra>>RF. As I said... there are points of overlap and points of difference. No one is saying that what happened to the two communities is the same. But there are points of overlap too.
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Tamika Miller>>thank you RF
Sheena Malhotra>>CD
Natalia Escuti>>the question is fear for whom?...people are more affraid of the other one thinks than being authentic and accept the other one for who he or she is
Jacqueline Brennan>>I think MB is just referring to the "fear of the unknown". There isn't anything to fear - but people who are stuck in their beliefs without opening their minds to the way the world is, have that fear of the unknown - of the changes that have occured without them.
Renae Flores>>!
Joi Pinney>>!
Natalia Escuti>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>RF, JP, NE
Tamika Miller>>!
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Crysol Dominguez>>I just made a refernce, similar in theory rosa parks civil rights, it was a metaphore about civil right using a historical figure. And i do se similarities in discrimination, segregation, and such..but not exactly as proff. said
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Joi Pinney>>i don't think that it has anything to do with fear. I think that i has to do with creating boundaries, if the majority of people don't want something then they put boundaries up
Connie Shannon>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>CS, TM
Renae Flores>>I think the civil rights issues among the African Americans was about segregation and inhumane treatment of humans...this is about marriage.
Mike Black>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>MB
Crysol Dominguez>>?
Natalia Escuti>>when people fear the unknown they rather stick to what they know or "think" they are comfotable with....they are afraid to cross bridges to see what's on the other side...sorry i keep getting disconnected ...
Mike Black>>JP why do you feel these people need to put up boundaries?
Barbara Abantao>>!
Tamika Miller>>gays have a lot of rights, but they are pushing for the marriage card. Civil rights are based on funadamental freedoms. I don't think they have a civil issue if it's just over marriage
Joi Pinney>>i don't feel that they need to but i am saying that it could be an explanation for why they are doing it
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>RF. I think both I and Crysol have been very clear. We are NOT conflating those two! But we are pointing out the moments of overlap... i.e. a community that does not have access to equal rights in a society...
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Sheena Malhotra>>SZ
Connie Shannon>>Fear is what we experience when we don't understand something, therefore, thta's what it's all about. I don't understand how LOVE could be feared but it is.
Sharareh Zarabi>>being able to marry a person that you love is a human right!!
Barbara Abantao>>I think I kinda get what JP is saying about "bounderies" it is just the same as fear in a sense that both are just being recognized as something beyond the acceptable norm
Tamika Miller>>!
Joi Pinney>>!
Kanna Uehara>>??
Natalia Escuti>>i don;t think is about fearing love is about fearing what the reactions to that love might be....afraid of expressing own identity of fear to be judged...and the unknown is always feared
Sheena Malhotra>>TM. I think I just went through an explanation above. I think marriage brings with it many "fundamental" rights in our society.
Sheena Malhotra>>TM, JP, KU
Kanna Uehara>>Sorry, JP. I am still confusing about what you try to say.
Joi Pinney>>BA thanks for understanding what i was trying to say
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Kanna Uehara>>!
Tamika Miller>>you don't have to marry someone just to prove you're in love. why the need to marry so bad?
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Sharareh Zarabi>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>TM. Did you miss the explanation we just had above?
Barbara Abantao>>!
Shana Jones>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>it's not just about "proving" something ... it's about being able to access someone in a hospital, have rights to property, have rights on any children in the marriage, have rights to alimony, have rights that are numerous... and that are accorded to married couples
Sheena Malhotra>>JB, SZ, BA, SJ
Tamika Miller>>no i didn't. it was an explanation of what the class came up with. not what i looked up online
Sharareh Zarabi>>If two people want to get merried WHY NOT? Who are we to oppose, are we g-d?
Jacqueline Brennan>>Its not to prove anything, its making a statement of love.
Barbara Abantao>>TM marriage is legally part of the American political system. Just like the Black community had to understand that voting rights will be more recognized than just trying to say what you want to happen
Shana Jones>>It isnt a matter of proving love through marriage, in additon to the rights listed above by SM, it is also about having equal opportunities for everyone in society
Ashlee Burke>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>AB, CD
Sheena Malhotra>>TM. I don't know what you looked up online... but there is a lot of hateful stuff out there...
Sheena Malhotra>>AB, CD
Mike Black>>Very good point SJ
Crysol Dominguez>>In regards to fear, i think it is derived from the freudian ideology that aptheker talks about, which has made homosexuality perverse...
Ashlee Burke>>TM. Marriage is like how the professor put it. It's a fundmental part of life in the Untied States and not getting that right is denying human rights. As a human they should have the rights like all other humans. And if that right is given to them some can use it and others don't have to use it.
Crysol Dominguez>>giving society its ingraind notions that it is bad and evil and all that junk/
Sharareh Zarabi>>I like the way you put it AB
Renae Flores>>!!
Kanna Uehara>>I think so too AB
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Victoria Barco>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>rf, vb
Victoria Barco>>What I don't get is why homosexuality isn't widely accepted... It's been going on since the beginning of time.
Teresa Worrell>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>tw
Renae Flores>>Just a comment. My views on this issue are personal. However, I feel like I am trying to be convinced to change them through this discussion. I think there are some valid points on both sides in regard to this subject, but I think everyone's feelings are important and should be respected.
Teresa Worrell>>I think it's the male ego that gets in the way, they can't bare the thought of two men together, when the norm demands heterosexuality
Crysol Dominguez>>?
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sharareh Zarabi>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>RF. You are entitled to your personal views. But this is a class in women's studies. And when we're talkign about the issue of sexuality and we're talking about it as a civil right - there IS a feminist position on this which is what is being explained here.
Crysol Dominguez>>Along with what teri said, from a stright males view, why is lesbianism ok, but two men is not,,that is what i alwasy hear from men.
Sheena Malhotra>>CD, BA, SZ
Mona Munoz>>!
Kanna Uehara>>!
Teresa Worrell>>!
Crysol Dominguez>>sorry i jumded the gun andd answered too soon professoR
Sheena Malhotra>>CD. I think that gets into the issue of the "male gaze." The idea of two women has been hyper-sexualized in this culture... and men are taught it as a cultural fantasy. When we are talking about two men together, however, that is when their homophobia gets expressed.
Sharareh Zarabi>>I have not felt that anyones views have been disrespected,in a discussion it is natural for everyone to exprss their views. If someone believes strongly in something then most likely their views will not change, but it's always good to be open to considering other views
Sheena Malhotra>>MM< KU, TW
Barbara Abantao>>I agree with TW and CD. if they are comfortable with two girls than the least they can do is to acknowledge other people rights like if two men want to be together in marriage
Ashlee Burke>>!
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>AB, BA
Mona Munoz>>I think as time passes, homosexuality will be more accepted and it will be interesting to see where we are in 10 years, who knows there maybe more gay marriages than heterosexual ones!
Teresa Worrell>>RF your feeling are respected, but to sit here as a gay woman and watch how my human rights are being debated by people who are in control of what I should and should have not have is just mind boggling....
Kanna Uehara>>This country is viewed as "free country." Al least Japnese people think so. Actually what hinders gay marriage??
Ashlee Burke>>I think that they idea of two women is more of a sexual idea. The idea of love and partnership are taken out of the equation.
Renae Flores>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>RF
Barbara Abantao>>But professor it is also unfair to begin with that the image provoked of two women together is hyper-sexualized in a sense that they can only be two good looking girls together
Kanna Uehara>>Only social norms??
Barbara Abantao>>!
Renae Flores>>TW....I understand....I have gay and lesbian friends, and am supportive of them....I just hold my views on this personal...
Sheena Malhotra>>BA. I think if you ask the straight men about two "butch" women together... you'll find that they don't really see that as appealing. They're talking about the hyper-sexualized image that I evoked earlier.
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Barbara Abantao>>AB is somewhat right but the documentary
Teresa Worrell>>I really shouldn't have to pay full price for police protection when my gay male friends are being gay bashed while the cops turn their heads...just like they do when women are being battered.
Barbara Abantao>>shows that there is more to the lesbian relationship than just sexual
Sheena Malhotra>>RF. As I said - you are entitled to your personal views. But this is a class where we are exploring a feminist point of view on this subject... and partially what getting an education is about is learning about things that you don't agree with - and hopefully considering them with an open mind. That last part is up to you. But learning what the feminist position on the subject is - THAT will be necessary for you to learn in this class.
Renae Flores>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>RF
Renae Flores>>I understand that...I was just explaining myself to TW...that's all:)
Sheena Malhotra>>Fair enough.
Sheena Malhotra>>okay... let's move on
Teresa Worrell>>thank you
Teresa Worrell>>lets
Sheena Malhotra>>I think I want to close out this topic by saying that it is important to look at why we get so uncomfortable around discussions such as this. I bring that up to say that it is at those points of uncomfortableness that I know there is something there for me to examine...
Sheena Malhotra>>So I invite you all to really think through and re-read some of the points that were made in the discussion today.
Sheena Malhotra>>You all did a great job of participating in it - and I thank everyone who put forth different views...
Sheena Malhotra>>because that is how we can have a real dialogue
Sheena Malhotra>>But I know that it was not an 'easy' discussion
Sheena Malhotra>>However... I hope that it is one that clarified some of the readings ... one that made you think about issues of sexuality, issues of civil rights, issues of human rights and social justice
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Sheena Malhotra>>Because I know that this is going to be an ongoing topic of debate in our larger society
Sheena Malhotra>>And it is one that definitely needs some "agents of change" to get involved ....
Sheena Malhotra>>we have 10 minutes or so left...
Teresa Worrell>>awoman to that
Sheena Malhotra>>i'll take any questions you might have
Kanna Uehara>>??
Sheena Malhotra>>KU
Natalia Escuti>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>NE
Crysol Dominguez>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>cd
Natalia Escuti>>i don;t have the concept of "queer" very clear and how is it different from Lesbian or gay
Kanna Uehara>>about interview paper. I already did interview with my grandmother.
Sheena Malhotra>>NE. Okay... important point
Kanna Uehara>>how can I use the readings?
Crysol Dominguez>>What are your views on the topic mentioned "bisexuality"?
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Sheena Malhotra>>NE. So "Queer" is an "umbrella" term that encompasses the whole community... includes folks who identify as gay, bisexual, lesbian, transgender, transexual, etc.,
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Sheena Malhotra>>It is a term that was reclaimed... because it used to be a negative slur
Sheena Malhotra>>CD. Bisexuality - what do mean, what are my views? unclear what you're asking
Natalia Escuti>>got it thanks professor!
Crysol Dominguez>>In the viedo the women said they did not believe there were "true" bisexuals? do you?
Kanna Uehara>>also please give me examples.
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Sheena Malhotra>>CD. Yes. I do.
Barbara Abantao>>?
Crysol Dominguez>>?
Sheena Malhotra>>I think that people get to identify their own sexuality ... and if someone identifies as bisexual, that's what they are.
Sheena Malhotra>>BA, Cd
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Crysol Dominguez>>ok that answered ny q's. Thank you professor.
Sheena Malhotra>>KU. Use the readings... meaning apply concepts from the readings. So you might find that something that your grandmother said reminded you of something that Aptheker talks about in the book. Apply that. That's what I mean.
Sheena Malhotra>>I think that bisexuality feels threatening to many because it defies the either/or binary we are used to thinking in.
Barbara Abantao>>But most of the interviewees responded about bisexuality as not real because it is mostly just in a psychological sexual way ... I gues it is just a loosely used term too.
Jacqueline Brennan>>!
Kanna Uehara>>ok
Sheena Malhotra>>It's similar to when people are biracial... and people want them to identify with one race or the other... makes us more comfortable. But they are both. And similarly, bisexuals are attracted to both men and women.
Kanna Uehara>>thank you so much
Sheena Malhotra>>JB
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Jacqueline Brennan>>I think alot of people don't take that term seriously because they don't understand how a person can feel sexual and emotional attachment to both genders. Most people feel that it is either one or the other.
Barbara Abantao>>Yes, I kinda got somewhat of the answer from that "biracial" explanation so I guess it is just also an issue as to where the bounderies are not as clear yet for most and that is why some oppose it.
Sheena Malhotra>>JB. I think that's because most people like to have boxes that they can fit folks into. It's scary when we can't put people in a box. There are some who would say that left to our "natural" selves... ALL of us would fall somewhere along the scale of bisexuality...
Victoria Barco>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>VB
Victoria Barco>>As stated in my sociology class... 10% of the world population is heterosexual, 10% is homosexual, and the other 80% fall somewhere in between.
Barbara Abantao>>lol
Teresa Worrell>>:)
Sheena Malhotra>>Right. Because that's how populations work... we cluster in the middle... forming a bell curve of sorts
Sheena Malhotra>>TW
Teresa Worrell>>just smiling
Sheena Malhotra>>But we get socialized/disciplined from birth into being attracted to only one sex
Natalia Escuti>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>NE
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Natalia Escuti>>yes we are socialized with the colors we should pick (pink for girls, blue for boys), the toys we should , play..etc...according to our sex
Barbara Abantao>>To be honest the video kinda shocked me... I should have done the readings first.... I really understood a lot from that
Sheena Malhotra>>BA. Hopefully the readings clarified.
Barbara Abantao>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>BA
Crysol Dominguez>>?
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Sheena Malhotra>>CD
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Crysol Dominguez>>may i be excused i have to go for my next class?
Kanna Uehara>>!
Sheena Malhotra>>okay... we're runnign out of time here... yes... let's stop
Sheena Malhotra>>KU
Sheena Malhotra>>Go ahead... and good night everyone
Evelyn Cazun-Rodriguez>>good night
Natalia Escuti>>good night...great chat!
Tonya Schmidt>>good night
Joi Pinney>>goodnight everybody
Mona Munoz>>thanks professor!
Crysol Dominguez>>good nite..excellent discission professor.!
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Michelle Gamburd>>bye
Sheena Malhotra>>Thank you for the discussion
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Kanna Uehara>>I will try to apply the concenpts in the readings to what my grandmother sadi. Thank you so much.
Teresa Worrell>>thank you professor
Sheena Malhotra>>you're welcome. have a good evening.
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Megan Wiser>>good night
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