Wed Jul 3 13:59:30 1996 PDT
Logging is turned on by ben.

ben asks, "G - are you still gonna give us the lowdown on Burke?" 
Nshanyan says, "NO, one day was not enought - I thought I might save it for our 
final paper"" 
Kathy exclaims, "cheicken!"
Nshanyan smile
ben says, "I had a feeling you'd leave me holdin' the bag.... :)" 
Kathy asks, "Ben - where is your slide show?" 
Nshanyan says, ""
ben says, "Well, I didn't do one since Mr. Nshanyan was going to present today ...." 
Kathy says, "I see."
Kathy says, "G, get with it! :)"
ben says, "just kidding George :) Sorry I didn't do a slide show but I will 
give you some Burke web sites...." 
Nshanyan says, "I have extra copies of "the end of rhetoric" - doo you have 
that kathy?"" 
Kathy says, "yes"
ben says, "I will put them here for now; 
don't worry if you can't get to them now because 
they will be in the log when you look at the web page." 
Nshanyan says, ""ok, I thought I might have your set"" 
ben asks, "did you look at the web page log on the web?" 
Kathy exclaims, "it was neat!"
ben says, "here is the first Burke URL: http://mickey.la.psu.edu/english/burke"
Nshanyan says, "i only saw the lynx version - and could,y post"" 
ben says, "http://the-duke.duq-duke.duq.edu/dept/burke.htm" 
Kathy exclaims, "dang ben, you type fast!!!" 
Nshanyan says, "K- did you download that screen spliter thing?"" 
ben says, "another: http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/homepage/papers/burke.html 
Kathy says, "not yet G"
ben says, "I'm not typing; I'm cutting and pasting :)" 
Kathy says, "you got me"
Kathy says, "I think I will now officially call you THE wizard." 
ben says, "An essay in the journal of mind and behavior: 
http://kramer.ume.maine.edu/%7Ejmb/jmb20.html 
ben says, " http://www.peru.edu/~djrhet/KBCCCC.HTML 
ben says, " http://www.aristotle.net/~callbritton/Html/jjoyce.html 
Nshanyan says, "Is there a way to get transcripts of out r conversation here?"" 
Kathy says, "just look up the lgo"
ben says, "yes, it will be on the web."
ben says, "don't worry about writing the URLs down; when the log is up on the 
web you can just click on them." 
ben says, " http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~winker/rhet.html " 
ben says, " http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/SPT/v1_n1n2/nieto.html
ben says, "These are just outta alta-vista, so they may be lousy. 
But now they will be there for you to browse later." 
ben says, "Your assignments for next week:" 
ben asks, "ready?"
Nshanyan says, "ya...""
ben says, "Read the logs on the web and look at some of the Burke sites, 
then post a message to hypernews that furthers our discussion." 

Wed Jul 3 14:09:51 1996 PDT

Kathy asks, "does that include me too?"
ben says, "I suggest you first post a test message just to make sure you have 
the procedure down; chances are you will lose your first couple of posts and it 
will be frustrating if you type a 20 page manifesto and it gets lost in 
cyberspace." 
Nshanyan says, "the signts you wrere just writing above?"" 
ben says, "What are you the teacher's pet? of course it includes you too :)" 
Kathy exclaims, "pleasedon't write a 20 page manifesto!" 
ben says, "yes -- don't worry about copying them now; they will be up on the 
web for you to click on tomorrow." 
Kathy says, "Yes, I thought I was but I guess not. :(" 
Kathy )
Kathy says, ":)"
ben smiles. I agree -- let's keep the first posts short. 
Nshanyan says, "short is good""
Kathy says, "I think that it would be more beneficial to have discussion s on 
the hypernews." 
Kathy says, "it's kinda difficult to have a well0-thoughtout discussion on the 
MOO" 
Nshanyan says, "but it won't be "real-time"" 
ben says, "Remember to post a test message first. you will be really pissed if 
you spend a half hour composing your post and it disappears. You might want to 
do your post in a word processor first and then cut and paste your post. That 
way if it gets lost you can paste it again." 
ben says, "I think we should use both MOO and hypernews. The real-time meetings 
are useful. Don't worry about the difficulty; it will get easier as you get 
used to it." 
Kathy says, "gotta oops... gotit"
Kathy says, "that d sounds dirty :( :)"
ben giggles. "Also - the sooner you download a client, the easier it will be. 
I know its a pain in the ass to do so but you will be happy you did in the long 
run. 
Kathy says, "I'm going to try again today." 
ben says, "plus you can say you learned technology in this class as well :)" 
Nshanyan says, "me too""
Kathy says, "it's so confusin.g"
ben asks, "are you guys connecting from home or campus?" Kathy says, "home"
Nshanyan says, "home"
ben asks, "do you use a PPP connection? or do you just log directly into huey/louie?" 
Kathy says, "what's PPP? I log onto huey." 
Nshanyan asks, "do I need more than one clinet if I also do it from campus or 
if I have 2 home computers - is it 1 client per computer or what?" 
ben says, "yes, the client is usually on your computer. But if you are 
connecting without SLIP or PPP you may not be able to use the client on your 
home computer. You would have to compile a client on HUEY - *big* pain in the 
ass and probably not worth it." 
ben says, "you're better off using PPP from home; that way you can use Netscape 
and all the other goodies." 
Kathy asks, "how do you connect to PPP?" 
ben says, "I can't help you with PPP though -- you'd have to call the computer 
center and get started. Basically PPP gives you a direct connection like the 
ones you use at school -- lets you use graphics and other stuff." 
Kathy says, "ok"
Nshanyan says, "so what's up with Burke" 
ben says, "the computer center should give you a disk with everything you need 
for your machine on it, and you would have to configure your computer to 
connect. A pain but worth it in the long run. I'll let you decide if you want 
to do it; in the meantime this format is functional." 
ben says, "good question George :)"
Kathy says, "Ihave one."

Wed Jul 3 14:20:08 1996 PDT

ben says, "yes, please ask away."
Kathy says, "I liked Burke's example of the proverb "whether the pitcher
 strikes the stone, or the stone the pitcher, it's bad for the pitcher." 
 I have more" 
ben asks, "give page # please?"
Kathy says, ""78"
Kathy says, "4th sentence from top"
Kathy says, "anayway, he brings our attention to the power inequalitites of this society. " 
Kathy says, ""no matter..."
Nshanyan asks, "how so"?"
ben says, "yes, Kathy that's right."
Kathy asks, "no matter what the average person has to say, how much change can 
this person make?" 
Kathy exclaims, "s/he is the loser. THEY are the powerful!" 
ben says, "Burke was very attentive to relations of power. He was loosely 
associated with the Communists in the 30s. Strongly antifascist and antiwar 
politics." 
ben says, "but I think you point to something that may be a fundamental problem 
in Burke as well. For KB, hierarchy is inevitable." 
Kathy asks, "how do we go about changing the social structure?" 
Kathy says, "h never mind the q"
Nshanyan says, "i like Burke definition of man - but has anyinone challanged him on it?"" 
ben asks, "Well, let's back up a sec -- I think changing the soc struc is an 
important question, but let's decipher a bit more of what KB says first. First 
off, why is hierarchy inevitable for KB?" 
Kathy asks, "if hierarchy is inevitable, why bother wasting our time on making 
a better future for the poor, for example?" 
Nshanyan says, "maybe you can make a less corrupt hierarchy" 
ben says, "I think the place to start might be unpacking the def of man." 
ben says, "Yes I agree G - in the long run that's where KB leaves us. 
But lets talk about the def...." 
Nshanyan says, "h"
ben says, "First of all, this kind of gesture -- defining "man" -- is common in 
philosophy." 
Kathy says, "well, Burke says we are moved by a sense of order." 
Nshanyan says, "the first few statments about the def. is clear but it get 
confusing with the later stuff- like the goated by the spirit of heirarchy and 
rotten with perfection" 
ben says, "At stake in such a gesture, I think, is an ontology of the 
essentially human." 
ben says, "Well bear with me for a sec; we'll get to the latter part of the def :)" 
Nshanyan says, "ok"
Nshanyan says, "gesture?""
ben says, "First off -- what do I mean ontology of the essentially human .... 
I mean the philosopher is looking for a way to distinguish the "human" world 
from its other, the "natural" world." 
Kathy says, "right..."
Nshanyan asks, "that would be stmbol using...right?" 
Nshanyan says, "symbol that is"
ben says, "The philosopher, at least since Aristotle, is at pains to 
distinguish the human from the natural. For Aristotle, "man" is the 
"reasoning animal."" 

Wed Jul 3 14:30:13 1996 PDT

Nshanyan says, "but not for Burke"
ben says, "homo rationalis or something. The animal that uses reason and 
logic." 
Nshanyan says, "nor is it the tool making animal" 
Kathy says, "let me know what when you're done, b." 
ben says, "That is correct. After the ancient greeks, the Romans had a notion 
of "vir bono" or the "good man". "Man" is that which does best for his society 
or world. Basically a fascist notion if you think about it, whereas Aristotle's 
was an aristocratic one." 
ben says, "Aristotle was aristocratic in that "reason" is something only 
accessible to the chosen few; the educated property- and slave-owning male." 
ben says, "The Roman conception I call fascist because the notion of the 
"social good" is a very limited notion that involves social conformity." 
Nshanyan asks, "too idealistic no?"
Nshanyan says, "social conformity that is" 
ben says, "(Just in passing I'll add that this is Ben's interpretation; no 
doubt others will challenge me on my categories). Yes -- both conceptions are 
idealistic." 
ben says, "I would argue that in fact the very basis on which the question is 
asked -- the impulse to distinguish the "human" from the "natural" -- is 
already an idealism." 
Kathy says, "my computer froze again."
Nshanyan asks, "did man invent the negative or did the negative invent man?" 
ben says, "You're getting way ahead of us George :)" 
Nshanyan says, "ok, so manhuman s are the symbol using animal"" 
ben says, "yes, Burke offers animal symbolicum, man as the symbol using 
animal." 
Kathy asks, "why do we always have this need to distinguish ourselves from everything else in this wordl?" 
Nshanyan says, "because we define what we are by what we are not"" 
Kathy says, "yes, I understand that we're symbol-using, but we have made that distingction for ourselves." 
ben says, "Just to finish my point about idealism, and answer K's question -- 
this impulse to make the distinction is an idealism in the sense that 
ultimately we can never know the difference; and ultimately we could situate 
the human as *part of* the natural." 
ben says, "and yes, that is the beauty of Burke." 
ben says, "his conception of the negative allows us to say, as G did, that the 
reason we distinguish the human from the natural is because of the negative." 
ben says, "which is, KB admits, a construction inherent to language rather than 
something "natural" or "essential."" 
Nshanyan asks, "isn't the human part of the natural?" 
Kathy says, "I have a side q. never mind." 
ben says, "so ultimately his definition of man is a paradox -- the naming and 
defining characteristic that makes us "man" is precisely something we have 
constructed in the process of naming and defining." 
Kathy says, "that's exactly what I was getting at." 

Wed Jul 3 14:40:19 1996 PDT

ben says, "G- I would say yes it is, but that characterization disrupts the 
entire enterprise. That was my point about idealism. It is already an idealist 
gesture to make the distinction man/natural." 
ben says, "that doesn't mean the distinction is useless. In fact it is very 
useful. But we must recognize it as an idealism of sorts." 
Nshanyan says, "ok...its geting clearer" 
ben smiles.
Kathy says, "I'll be right back. I'm being fried in my room." 
ben says, "OK - so Burke sez man is the symbol-using animal. Now never mind 
that ethologists tell us that animals in some instances also use symbols, or 
any reasons we can think of to make the definition invalid." 
Kathy says, "I'm back."
ben says, "Let's instead pay attention to the kind of work the definition does." 
Nshanyan says, "ok.."
ben says, "the animal that uses symbols -- not just uses, but makes and most 
importantly *misuses* them." 
Nshanyan says, "its a completelt diffenrent level of us - not even comparable" 
ben says, "here the human being enters into a relationship with the symbolic
world that is already marked by a radical ambiguity. Sometimes we use symbols;
 sometimes symbols use us." 
Nshanyan says, "so Burke would'nt comsider a baby as fully human yet since it does not use symols" 
ben says, "for Burke important problems arise when symbols use us. It is up to 
rhetoricians of his ilk (and this, I think is Burkes primary political impulse)
 to show how we let symbols use us and to call attention to the possibilities 
of properly using symbols." 
Kathy says, "but, I don't agree w/KBG"
ben says, "Well, I think that's nitpicking at some level -- again let's not pay 
attention to whether KB is right or wrong but rather to the kind of work his 
arguments allow. " 
Kathy says, "what? KBG? :) I mean, KB"
ben says, "I don't agree with him either. But that's not why he's useful." 
Kathy says, "sorry, I wasn't finished m w/my sentence." 
Nshanyan says, ""
ben says, "Yes, a child could be said to use symbols; h/er first entry into the 
symbolic world is the doctor's spank (a symbol) and the baby's cry (another 
symbol). Not a very sophisticated communicative interaction but it's a start
for a newborn entering into the symbolic." 
Kathy says, "He's saying that reality has been built up for us through nothing 
but our symbo systems. If we take away all the books and such, we won't know of 
our reality. However..." 
ben says, "yes, K go on"
Kathy says, "no matter whether or not we hav es symbols, we will still have a certain reality." 
Nshanyan says, "it wold not be the same without symbols though" 
Kathy asks, "how so?"
ben says, "yes but there is no such thing as such a reality that we know of. 
and we couldn't know it any other way than through symbols." 
Kathy says, "let's talk about animals then." 
Kathy asks, "don't thye have a "reality."?" 
ben says, "no - let's talk about man for the moment. 
KB is useless if we talk about animals." 

Wed Jul 3 14:50:19 1996 PDT

Kathy asks, "that's my problem?"
Kathy says, "I can't get away from that." Nshanyan says, "what"
Kathy says, "animals."
ben says, "I'm not saying to -- just hang onto that question for a sec." 
Nshanyan asks, "hu?"
Nshanyan asks, "hu?"
ben says, "KB tells us that the Human world is already and always a social 
world" 
Nshanyan says, "you can't construct a reality without symbols, bscibasically.." 
ben says, "In other words, the human world is always and already a world that 
exists through symbols, in mediation with other humans." 
Kathy asks, "are you saying then that there is no physical reality?" 
Kathy says, "a phuysic al s	ll sorry."
ben says, "not at all. Rather that physical reality is already *social*." 
Nshanyan asks, "is this where the distinction of action and motion might come in handy?" 
ben says, "it is meaningless to talk of a physical reality that is not social and symbolic." 
Kathy says, "a physical reality will exist no matter whether or not we have symbols." 
Nshanyan says, "but we associate them throught symbols" 
ben says, "yes of course Kathy. But that's not the point - the point is whether 
or not it exists, we only know or experience it through symbols." 
ben says, "even to perceive it -- "ah ha! that is physical reality!" -- is 
already to perceive it through symbole." 
Kathy says, "let's look at an example."
ben says, "Yes; give me an example of a physical reality that is asocial or nonsymbolic." 
Kathy says, "if I'm waliking, and I see a rock, If I don't use symbols, I'll 
still see it as a n object." 
Nshanyan says, "ut what that object is or what is t represents is done through sysbols" 
ben asks, "what is an object?"
ben says, "An object is a category of things.... certainly a symbolic construction." 
ben says, "Lacan would say that you experience the rock (or whatever) as a 
"part-object" -- not yet an object since it hasn't entered into the symbolic 
yet. The way a baby experiences the mother's breast." 
Kathy says, "I know you're trying to get me to say ... hold on..." 
Kathy says, "... we define something for what it is not... but..." 
Kathy asks, "are you telling me that a nonsymbol using animal will not see it 
as a roo rock?" 
Nshanyan says, "Lacan was helpful , ben" 
ben says, "an object is part of a matrix of objects in a symbolic web. 
It only makes sense as an object by being different from other objects." 

Wed Jul 3 15:00:34 1996 PDT

ben asks, "Well, do you think an animal knows what a rock is?" 
Nshanyan says, "not as we do"
Kathy says, "an animal couldn't dein define it but it knows to avoid it when 
they com eto it." 
Kathy exclaims, "I had hate this computer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 
ben says, "Again let's not try too hard to get into an animal's brain b/c we 
will never get there. Ultimately we might say animals too live in a symbolic 
world and rather than invalidate KB that would extend his point to the animal 
world. But such an exercise would really be mental masturbation." 
ben says, "be patient, K :)"
Kathy says, "I agree! Ok, what next."
Nshanyan smile
ben says, "OK -- so, we're through with symbol-using. on to symbol-misusing. 
This, as I said, is KB's primary ethico-political assumption." 
ben says, "or one of them anyway."
ben says, "for KB problems arise when we let symbols use us. 
This is his definition of ideology." 
ben says, "If I know I can make you both giggle by typing DAN QUAYLE I have 
used symbols which use you. " 
ben says, "assuming giggles and titters is the reaction I am interested in provoking, 
I can now "control" my fellow man." 
Kathy says, "are you making a political statement? :)" 
Nshanyan says, "what are you getting at? " 
ben says, "For KB, obviously this presents a problem. As I said he was very 
antifascist; he saw what was going on in Europe prior to WWII as a danger that 
was caused by this improper use of symbols." 
Kathy says, "referring to Hitler..."
ben says, "yes, of course. Burke is the scholar of communication that gives the 
study of rhetoric a political purpose in the 20th century -- according to KB, 
we could make the world a better place through the use of symbols." 
Kathy says, "definitely"
ben says, "We can in other words imagine our world anew and create it anew by 
better using the symbols we use." 
Nshanyan says, "I don't think I ever thought of him as being very politivcal"
Kathy says, "but, there's "
ben says, "yes, it's not an earth shattering profundity in 1996 but it's 
nevertheless a very useful, and fundamental, point." 
Kathy says, "but, we have a problem with that. when we make or use symbols to 
better something, it's still a ..." 
Nshanyan asks, "you mean like..better for whome?" 
ben says, "Well, he wasn't Malcolm X or anything. But he was politically active 
and there is a profound political impulse to his work." 
Kathy says, "... social norm that we have created. (sorry, computer froze)" 
ben says, "better for humans :) According to KB a human who uses symbols better 
is already better in an objective sense. But of course that objective realtiy 
is already social." 
Kathy exclaims, "exactly!"
Kathy says, "so many contradictions."
ben says, "K: yes, that is exactly true. That is not a problem though. " 

Wed Jul 3 15:10:38 1996 PDT

ben says, "See, there is no reason to try to "get out" of the symbolic world, 
even if we could." 
Nshanyan says, "but one thing cant be better for all human...just some" 
ben says, "the symbolic world is a good thing -- it enables us to become the 
social beings that we are." 
Nshanyan asks, "so isn't it ... better for which humans?" 
Kathy asks, "G: what?"
ben says, "yes G, this is where KB's notion of the inevitability of hierarchy 
is a problem." 
Kathy says, "in a sense, KB is very optoimistic." 
ben says, "Those of us who want to imagine nonhierarchal relations run up 
against this using KB; for KB the end of hierarchy would be the end of 
rhetoric. " 
Kathy says, "that's interesting."
Kathy says, "let's delve into that a bit more..." 
ben says, "not so much optimistic as he offers us the tools for optimism. 
If we can use those tools properly we can re-create our world." 
Nshanyan asks, "so is heirarch an exigence s of a sort?" 
Kathy says, "yes"
ben says, "remember he drank himself to death on stale gin so there is some 
pessimism there. (I'm exaggerating; I think he died of "natural causes")." 
Kathy says, ""
Kathy says, ":)"
Nshanyan smile
ben says, "yes - hierarchy is part of the def of the human -- "goaded by the 
spirit of hierarchy and rotten with perfection." 
Kathy says, "I would name or rename "rotten with perfection to rotten with laziness." 
Nshanyan says, "interesting"
ben says, "But again I don't think this means KB is useless for egalitarian 
scholarship. The social/symbolic world he imagines is very useful." 
Kathy says, "I agree"
ben says, "The main thing is a certain dichotomy, which I think K's point captures." 
ben says, "On the one hand, symbols use us. We are born into a symbolic world 
with rigid symbolic structures." 
Kathy says, "again, we are making an assumption." 
Nshanyan asks, "about whtat?"
ben says, "We are already named, categorized, and disciplined before we emerge
 from the womb. "baby", "boy", "girl", "dumb", "smart", "wroking class", 
"colored"." 
Kathy says, "right, but we gave those lables, I mean, labels ourselves." 
Kathy says, "it's a social creation."
ben says, "etc. these symbols begin using us even before we're born. they 
continue to use us and we become "student," "worker", "doctor," "lawyer," "drug addict."" 
Kathy says, "where did the drug addict come from? ")" 
Kathy says, "hhee-hee"
ben says, "so we are nothing but hapless pawns in a symbolic structure that 
grips at our very being. " 
ben says, "But"
Nshanyan says, "in"
ben says, "on the other hand,"
Kathy says, ") :)"
ben says, "Rhetoric -- the art of using symbols -- gives us the opportunity to 
disrupt these rigid symbolic structures." 
Kathy says, "good pt"
Nshanyan says, "so in all situation is it a matter of we using symbols and 
symbols using us a the same time? or can we say in certain instance which one 
of the two is observed" 
ben says, "For as rigid as these structures are, 
they are also the conditions of possibility for change." 
Kathy says, "I liked your use of the word "disrupt."" 

Wed Jul 3 15:21:07 1996 PDT

ben says, "G - KB is very clear that there are times when one mode is dominant. 
Yes, K, I am working thorugh KB's notion of the negative. In creating a new 
symbolic structure or relation we are disrupting the old." 
Kathy says, "thus, rhetoric continues."
ben says, "This is very Hegelian. All action is negation. To pick an apple from 
a tree is to negate that tree, to transform it through action into it's negative." 
ben says, "to make it something it is not. Similarly, to use symbols in a new 
way, to create a new relation, is to disrupt and negate the old relation." 
Kathy says, "right"
ben smiles. "Is this stuff cool or what?" 
Kathy exclaims, "I love it!!!!"
Nshanyan says, "ya...its ok"
Kathy says, "KB i "
Nshanyan says, ":)"
ben says, "hehehehehe.."
Kathy says, "KB is one of my favorites"
Kathy says, "HEE-HEE back"
Kathy asks, "could we talk some more next time?" 
Kathy says, "we've been on for 1 1/2 hours." 
ben says, "I think we've really unpacked KB's fundamental assumptions here. 
Most of KB's utility in rhetoric comes from these assumptions." 
ben says, "yes, I think we could quit for today." 
Kathy says, "my room is so hot, I'm dying." 
Nshanyan exclaims, "what about my terministic screens?!!!!" 
ben says, "remember, a thoughtful discussion on KB on Hypernews soon :)" 
Kathy says, "are you saying y our discussion here was not thoughtful? Just 
kidding." 
ben asks, "yes, I think we could go into term screens if you want to talk 
longer. Want to take a break and reconvene later?"
ben asks, "or do you want to continue the discussion in hypernews?" 
Kathy says, "hypernews, please."
Nshanyan says, "not too much later...i've got to leave" 
ben says, "OK -- we'll take it to hypernews then." Nshanyan says, "ok"
Kathy says, "gotacha"
Kathy asks, "what?"
ben smiles
Kathy says, "I mean, gotcha."
Nshanyan says, ""how do I read our discussion tomorrow" 
Kathy says, "see ya. take care."
Kathy says, "I'll wait"
Nshanyan says, "to get the signts"
Nshanyan says, ""
ben says, "cool. And check the web pages for the log; click on the syllabus and 
then click on the MOOlog for today. I think the URL will be 
http://www.csun.edu/~hfspc002/96/960703.rhetlog.html" 
Nshanyan says, "ok"
ben asks, "how bout a meeting time for next week?" 
Kathy asks, "are we done?"
Nshanyan says, "see ya"
Kathy says, "wait"
Nshanyan asks, "Thursday again?"
Kathy says, "" let me look at my calendar." 
ben says, "We will skip ahead to Nietzsche rather than covering Fisher, though 
I will incorporate him into my comments." 
ben says, "do you have the Blair intro to _N on Rhet and Language_? I may need to get you this." 
Kathy says, "ben..."
ben asks, "yes?"
Kathy says, "this idiot comes on line all the time to talk..." 
Kathy asks, "how can I get rid of him?"
ben asks, "you mean he types "talk hfspcetc."?" 
Kathy says, "right"
Nshanyan says, "I don'r t think that i have the Blair intro" 
ben says, "if you don't want to hear him type "mesg n" when you are at 
the huey prompt." 

Wed Jul 3 15:31:15 1996 PDT

Kathy says, "thanks. It's like the 10 millionth time he has bugged me." 
ben says, "he will get a message that says you are not receiving messages from 
losers like him :)" 
Kathy says, ":)"
Nshanyan laugh
Kathy asks, "what about Blair?"
ben says, "If you ever want to check your status (y or n for messages) type 
mesg at the huey prompt." 
Kathy says, "ok"
ben says, "you can always set it to "n"." 
Nshanyan asks, "so what to read for next week?" 
ben says, "Blair -- hmmm.... -- I should be at school over the weekend. I can 
leave it in an envelope on my door if you want." 
ben says, "it's not crucial; the main thing is read Nietsce and Heckman in the 
packet." 
ben says, "you should have both of those." 
Nshanyan exclaims, "I have both!"
Kathy says, "hold on... let me ck to see if I have it." 
ben says, "excellent. "
Nshanyan asks, "will we be done with the IS by the time next semesters starts?" 
ben says, "I will put some Nietasche links on the syllabus page for you to use 
too. I think we should also have a Nietzsche discussion in hypernews." 
ben says, "yes, we will."
ben says, "assuming you get papers to me by then of course." 
Kathy says, "I don't have it."
Nshanyan asks, "so we can pick up Blair from you door by Monday?" 
ben says, "you don't? you copied it. the N reading is "on truth and falsity". 
Heckman is "Nietzsche's Clever Animal in On truth and falsity"." 
Kathy asks, "I have Heckman. You said Blair, right?" 
Kathy says, "it"
ben says, "I can leave copies of those too if you want but you might want to 
stop by and pick it up earlier. If you feel like coming over the hill...." 
Kathy asks, "is that the translated versoin?" 
ben says, "you don't have blair. you have heckman. do you have Nietzsche? yes 
it is a translation. Did you want to read it in the german? ;)" 
Kathy exclaims, "yes, of course. I love to read in Greek, Latin, and German!"
Nshanyan says, "I'm inpressed"
ben says, "smartass.... unfortunately I'm a barbarian and only speak English."
Kathy exclaims, "me too!"
ben says, "but you can read it in the german if you like. You will definitely 
get more out of it." 
Kathy says, "i'm sure"
Kathy says, "ok. I don't have Blari"
ben asks, "anyway, the crucial question is, do you have a copy of the nietzsche 
essay, in any language?" 
Kathy says, "yes. on truth oand falsity." 
ben says, "yes I know -- Blair will be outside my door if I don't forget; 
I'll email you when it's there, by monday." 
Kathy says, "ok"
ben says, "ok, perfect then. read nietzsche and heckman before next thurs."
Nshanyan says, "ok, so i guess that's it.." 
Kathy asks, "thurs what time?"
ben asks, "great. 2 PM?"
Nshanyan asks, "we meet on Thursday?"
Kathy says, "ok"
Nshanyan exclaims, "OK!"
Wed Jul 3 15:41:25 1996 PDT
ben exclaims, "cool! See you then!"
Nshanyan says, ""

Logging is turned off by ben.
Wed Jul 3 15:41:42 1996 PDT